Thank you to everyone who contributed to the in-person event safety checklist and associated resources! These have been hugely helpful in assisting local organizers to plan for these events where possible, while making sure they plan safe WordPress events.
When we created that checklist, COVID-19 vaccine rollout was still in very early stages, and the checklist did not account for vaccines. Vaccination efforts are still being rolled out across the world and many people do not have access to vaccines yet, but progress has reached a point where it seems wise to start incorporating it into the checklist, where possible.
Proposal:
The team proposes to apply the following guideline to the in-person event safety checklist for WordPress chapter meetups:
In places that don’t currently pass the checklist (or during time periods that a place doesn’t pass)…
but COVID vaccines are freely available…
if local public health authorities say it’s acceptable for fully-vaccinated people to gather in person…
…then those people should be able to meet in person, through their local WordPress meetup group.
If this were added to the meetup guidelines, it would mean that in places that do not meet the safety expectations in the checklist, in-person events should be organized for fully-vaccinated people only, at this stage. That being said, it isn’t practical (and, in some places, legal) to ask organizers to check the vaccination status of individuals. Therefore, I suggest we ask groups to use the honor system, trusting that people will only attend these events if they have been vaccinated.
Organizers would need to clearly explain to attendees that they should only attend if they are willing to accept the risk that — despite the intent of the meetup — someone might attend who is not fully vaccinated. If someone is not comfortable attending in-person meetups with this level of risk, then they should keep attending online meetups until conditions change.
Local organisers could try inexpensive ways to live-stream their events, or otherwise incorporate an online component. Local organizers should invite community members to keep holding online meetups, as an alternative to in-person meetups.
Discuss!
It would be great to get some feedback on this idea, specifically in the following areas:
- Do you think it’s reasonable to allow fully-vaccinated people to hold in-person WordPress meetups, where allowed by public health authorities?
- Do you think the proposal as outlined will be effective? Why or why not?
- If this proposal were to move ahead, should we request that organizers take any additional safety measures for in-person meetings of fully-vaccinated people (ie, holding those meetings outside, or providing masks and hand-sanitizer, limiting attendance)?
- What could the Community Team do to assist with easy and/or inexpensive live-streaming of meetup events?
Let’s keep discussion open for two weeks. I’ll close comments on May 27!
Thank you to @hlashbrooke, @rmarks, @angelasjin, @harishanker, @jenniferswisher, and @kcristiano for their insight and feedback on this proposal!
Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts and concerns to this discussion! I’m closing comments (a little later than I intended), and we’ll work to get a summary post published shortly.
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Are we going to have a liability disclaimer that people need to sign? Something like http://wayback.fauppsala.se:80/wayback/20210808151943/https://www.mlb.com/royals/tickets/covid-19-notice ? Will the venue be required to sign (or make attendees) sign that sort of waiver?
We also need to take into consideration the reality that even with a vax, you can get COVID. In the event that covid is contracted, are we responsible/liable/obligated for communicating with all attendees to mitigate the spread? That would require everyone at an event has to register, has to provide proof of ID, and contact information that is valid.
Honestly we should be doing that at WordCamps and meetups anyway for things like the measles, pink eye etc. I know a number of events just check your name, but don’t validate you are the person. Or we just take the badge as fact without double checking it’s the person AND the badge. Making sure those things are consistent will allow us to be protected in the next pandemic.
Finally … if someone violates the honour code, will there be repercussions? Will they be prohibited from attending future events, or will this just be theatre? I’m not for a name-and-shame at all, but if we don’t have some kind of fall-out for hurting others or putting them at risk, then what’s the point in having a that proposal in the first place?
I usually am not for adding more steps for organizers but we are in new an weird times. This is something I would 100% stand behind. I have do this going into the doc, venues, and travel now… so it is reasonable to assume I would need to do something like this for a WC, Meetup, or gathering.
This is a valid question, but how would we know? Or are we saying if we find out they are sick, and we must track EVERYONE down and let them know that they would be barred…. is that only if they say they knew… seems hard to put into practice. However, IF we found out someone lied there SHOULD be consequences. We also should know what those are going in.
Ah yeah, I meant specifically if someone outright lied. Like they knew they were exposed and came anyway. Or they knew they were not vaxed and came anyway.
Not knowing is not knowing, and I would be inclined to believe someone who said “I just found out I was exposed the day before I came!” or even someone who was shocked to find out later.
It falls in with the liability issue. That is, if someone knowingly violates protocol and gets caught putting others at risk, we have a social obligation to notify attendees and to ensure it doesn’t repeat. Which is why I think we do need clear consequences. And if one person says 2 or 3 days later, “Hey, I just found out I have COVID!” then we really do need to notify everyone who was there “You may have been exposed, please follow local protocol.”
Agreed! Always good to be clear about consequences. Thanks for clarifying your thought process. I am 100% tracking and on board!
Hey! Aussie here, chiming in with our local status.
While I encourage everyone to go get the jab as soon as they can, vaccines aren’t yet widely available in Australia. Despite this, we’ve managed to keep the spread of COVID-19 fairly well managed, for the most part.
In my state (Queensland), as of this writing, there have been zero new cases in the last 24 hours, and are currently only 15 active cases (mostly quarantined interstate / overseas travellers).
Naturally, the government issues advice on events like WordCamps, which can be found here: http://wayback.fauppsala.se:80/wayback/20210808151943/https://www.qld.gov.au/health/conditions/health-alerts/coronavirus-covid-19/current-status/public-health-directions/business-activity
Here’s the relevant part:
Going by this information, a WordCamp event in Brisbane, Queensland should be allowed, even without vaccination status checks. Previously WordCamp Brisbane has attracted around 200—300 attendees, so it would be easy to cap attendees at 500.
If we were to require vaccination status, I fear that Australia will be one of the last countries to conduct a WordCamp, despite our relative safety.
I just want to add that I only just now noticed this section of the proposal being discussed:
Brisbane easily passes the checklist, so basically everything I wrote here is besides the point! Please disregard.
Ha, I knew the long, long list of “ifs” in this proposal was going to get somebody, Luke! I’m so stoked that people in Brisbane and all of Australia are so safe from COVID; it’s wonderful.
Luke,
I am from Canada in case you are wondering….My main point. You Australians have a huge advantage. Australia is one of the strictest countries in the world with what you can bring in to Australia. You are sort of more isolated that other countries. You can bring in way more things in Canada that you could bring in Australia.
Big question here… is this for Meetups only or all WordPress Central Sponsored (Supported, Official) events?
It is not a far cry to ask organizers, sponsors, or even venue workers (some meet at coffee shops, etc) to prove vaccination status. Asking attendees could get dicey, but if you want to run an event that should be a pre-requisite.
We know enough now to know that IF you are FULLY vaccinated, THEN even if you contract COVID-19 you will not have it as bad or die. This turns the deadly disease into a far more manageable outcome. It also allows people to take risks on their own. Even disney has signs stating you are entering at your own risk. Contact tracing is still a very real thing that should be handled by organizers.
What we don’t want is people who think everyone is vaccinated so they can gather without masks, sanitizer, or social distancing. If the presumption of vaccine safety is there, then it may cause some to loosen other requirements. For the time being, we should still follow the guidelines we know which is IF masks are fully worn than 3ft is proper distancing and if not then 6ft.
These are just additional things to consider.
To be clear… this is 100% a-okay with me, and I can’t wait to get back to all events SAFELY!
I’m not sure I understand the distinction you’re asking about… if you mean, is this for meetups and WordCamps, I’m only proposing this for meetups right now. I think a phased return to in-person gatherings is the least risky path.
If you’re asking whether this would be for any WP meetup, whether in the chapter or not, this would be only for WordPress chapter meetups, not independent groups. 🙂
I agree that collecting contact information from people attending in-person gatherings would be a smart move; possibly legally required in some places. So we could request that of organizers who want to organize in-person meetups for fully-vaccinated people, maybe a sign-in sheet of some sort.
Call me a conspiracy theorist 🙂 but what would be the next step, no vaccine – no access to live events? Just askin’…
I hope you don’t mind me getting very specific, because I want to point out that WordPress meetups do host live events every day online, organized by excellent community organizers all over the world! 🙂
And then I’ll also clarify that this approach would only be appropriate for countries/regions where vaccines are widely available, for pragmatic as well as equity and inclusion reasons.
Just as with all our events, we invite people to participate in a way that follows the intent of the event organizers. For example, if someone organizes a help desk event, then it’s expected that people won’t show up and try to give an unplanned presentation — if someone tries, the organizer would simply explain the intent for that help desk event and redirect the would-be presenter. The organizer isn’t trying to bar people from giving presentations, it’s just that this particular event was not intended for that.
I know WordPress community organizers are reluctant to organize in-person events if they think that will endanger community members. At the same time, we’re all very eager to see each other in person again. This approach, of holding in-person events for fully vaccinated people (using the honor system), while keeping online live events for unvaccinated people or those who simply prefer the safety of online events, is one pathway toward a gradual transition back to in-person events.
That’s a pathway to two-tiered society. And what’s next, Flu shots? After all, why not. People die of flu too. Then why stop there, how many other diseases there are, for which people can get a vaccine…
Because once you pop, you can’t sop.
I’m curious — do you think WordPress community events should stay online, then? And if so, under what conditions do you think people should meet in person?
Nope, of course not. Events online suck.
What conditions? How about no conditions and apply common sense?
Those who are vaccinated are vaccinated and should be safe, right? If you trust vaccines you should live normal life, no? If you don’t trust that vaccine protects you, why did you take it in the first place?!?
Those who are not vaccinated should join in, if they feel like it. If they don’t feel like it, they should wait until they get vaccinated. I mean, I really don’t know what’s all the fuss about.
You’ll not show up if you’re sick, regardless if that’s COVID-19 or flu or common cold. After all, there are enough studies so far that proved that people who have no symptoms of COVID are not contagious, if you want to move the discussion in that path.
How about that?
People lie.
I got my first vaccine, I will get my second one in July. <— seriously not a lie.
What happens if people lie about it? I was on a flight with Matt Mullenweg and Andrea Middleton. It got highjacked and it crash landed in Antartica. The three of us survived. We ate penguin meat until 7 months later we got rescued.
There. I just lied.
Anyways, what if I get a test done, I get the results and it says negative. The day after I get infected not knowing, then 2 days after I get the results, it’s Day one for a WordCamp. I will think that I am negative but I got infected the day after the results and one day before WordCamp.
What if someone comes from let’s say New Delhi (India) via Frankfurt (Germany) and NYC (USA) to WordCamp Los Angeles? That someone might be clean and healthy in New Delhi, but could get infected in Frankfurt and/or NYC. What then?
The same applies when someone travels far to a WordCamp and has to transit via another city/country and gets infected in the transit point, then what?
What if someone wants to attend WordCamp Miami from Alaska. I am not sure there are direct flights from Juneau or Anchorage to Miami. Right now the USA is the #1 country with active cases. India is on the top 5 too.
Here in Canada, you have to show proof you got tested (and results have to be negative) when you enter Canada from air. Many people have been charged for providing fake test results.
I am not going to give any of you by health information by the way. I do not know where any of you live but that is extremely private information. If I give it to one WordCamp/Meetup organizer, will he/she show it to other organizers? Who will have access to that information?
So few WordCamps/meetups had streaming options before the pandemic. Now they are all online. I think the streaming/online/zoom/skype/etc…options should be available after things “go back to normal”.
I do not feel that it is wise to plan and encourage in-person events. I see the amount of hand-wringing, discussion, and churn surrounding this. I believe this to be a tremendous waste of time and resources to even consider.
There’s a single critical criteria for making this design:
Does anyone wish to look back on an event they planned, encouraging in-person participation, and be able to live with the consequences in the event that the worst happens?
If you cannot answer that question, then simply don’t do it.
Eh, I meant to comment on the main thread…. sorry
Nicely put, nothing to add to this one.
A few clarifications:
I think WordPress meetups and WordCamps will continue to organize online meetings for a long time, possibly forever.
I don’t think the team is trying to encourage in-person gatherings, we’re simply discussing how we could open an option for in-person gatherings, plus how/when/where.
So, about lying.
Since we won’t ask organizers to check vaccination status, I agree that there’s a very real possibility that someone, somewhere, will show up to an in-person meetup event who is not vaccinated.
As @glueckpress points out, currently the science seems to indicate that vaccinated people are unlikely to catch COVID-19, and less likely to spread it. However, the risk of infection and spread is not 0. It’s also true that the risk of infection and spread for COVID is 0 when we meet online.
That said, attending an in-person WordPress meetup has always carried some risk. If you attend a meetup online, your risk of being hit by a car or bitten by a dog while traveling to the meetup is (I hope) very close to zero. But our community members weigh the risks, take the measures they feel are appropriate to protect themselves as well as they can, and then make a choice.
If the group does maintain online gatherings AND in-person gatherings for fully-vaxxed people, community members and organizers will be able to make the choices that match the level of personal risk they’re willing to take on. I’m not 100% sure that this is the right path forward, but I think it does seem to provide reasonable options for all parties. It definitely isn’t without risk, though.
In Europe we will have the “green whatever” aka (the CoViD passport) so, everybody will have a QR / App where you can check via that QR if that person has some kind of vaccine / PCR / test and you have “green light” to go wherever you want…
Not all European countries will have this. This is in many countries still very much a debate. But besides that, it’s illegal in Europe to exclude someone based on whether they have or have not received vaccination. You may ask about it, but no one’s obligated to disclose anything health status related.
Maybe in EU, there’s Europe outside EU, you know. 🙂
What is being proposed is totally illegal in most countries, where no one can be asked about their health status, marital status, sexuality, desire to become pregnant, etc., to gain access to a facility, job, etc., etc.
Besides, what would be the point of someone being vaccinated if they can still contract the disease to a greater or lesser degree? Isn’t a PCR safer for everyone, although just as illegal?
Before COVID no one would think of asking for a health certificate on any disease, even more serious ones, to access an event, I don’t see why it should be any different now.
For the purposes of clarification, the proposal here states:
The proposal here isn’t intending to ask for people to reveal their vaccination status or to present any kind of certificate or proof either way. /cc @defries
Hey Fernando! Just commenting to confirm that no one is suggesting organizers ever break the law, and the proposal does not include asking attendees about their vaccination status.
The idea as proposed is: vaccinated people are invited to in-person events, and unvaccinated people are invited to online events, and we trust community members to follow the intent of the event and make their own decisions about the risks they take on — understanding that there will be no check for vaccination status, ever.
What do you think about a return to in-person meetup events with under those conditions?
As @fernandot indicated right above me, your proposal is entirely illegal in the vast majority of Europe.
Everything related to one’s medical or health status is forbidden to ask about by any entity. Even seeminly legitimate ones like law officers–I only know the high level specifics in the Netherlands, btw.
As for the rest, I think each community in a country/region should be allowed to do whatever that country/region allows them to do. I don’t see the need for the WordPress project to add to that. There are highly qualified people already doing that on a government level.
The idea proposed is not to ask about status but to state that on the honors system attendees will only come if they are vaccinated.
Andrea puts it perfectly above:
So I would love to hear your thoughts to the same question she asked.
Yes, since the point of all vaccination is to provide a reasonable saftey measure for people to prevent infection with the disease they’ve been vaccinated against, I don’t see why not.
Even when excluding the legal implications for a moment, this is where it gets tricky for me.
The way vaccination used to work before SARS-COVID-2 (as far as I’m aware as a non-expert) was that once vaccinated against a particular type of infection, you could safely assume you wouldn’t get it.
In that scenario, a person who chose to get vaccinated could feel safe even amongst others who – for whatever plausible or implausible reason – chose not to. If I’m choosing to get vaccinated againt the measles, I’m assuming I won’t get it, that’s the point. Whether or not others at an in-person event also have been vaccinated against the same thing, becomes fairly irrelevant for my own feeling of safety.
There obviously are other implications regarding how diseases are spread among a population in general, and that’s a wider ethical-political issue, but as a person, if I’m vaccinated against the measles, I can go to a WordCamp and safely assume I won’t catch the measles.
At this point I’m wondering what the proposal’s specific goal may be in terms of “effectiveness”? Is it to ensure individual safety? If that’s the case, I’d argue if I’m vaccinated and the vaccine is effective, neither myself, nor any event organiser have to be worried about another person’s vaccination status.
However, as Mika mentioned above, in the particular case of SARS-COVID-2, vaccination currently isn’t actually regarded 100% effective to help prevent infection. So if I’m vaccinated against SARS-COVID-2, I have to assume there’s a chance I can still catch it.
With this in mind, is the goal of “effectiveness” for this proposal then to help prevent even vaccinated individuals from getting infected? Or to prevent COVID from spreading at in-person meetups?
In that case, I’d say we’re out of our depths.
If the vaccine itself isn’t able to fully do what vaccines are supposed to, I don’t think it should be up to meetup organisers or attendees to make up for that. To me, the only reasonable thing to do if vaccination actually doesn’t protect me, or others, and I’m worried about getting infected, or spreading the virus, is to stay away from in-person events.
I don’t see how creating a two-tier in-person meetup audience would help this community.
(Edit: removed a remark on falling ill even when vaccinated; not sure if that’s an actual risk, but IIRC there is one of catching and spreading the virus.)
(Edit: reworded a remark about organisers knowing about attendees’ vaccination status, which I realised isn’t part of the proposal.)
I completely agree with this. I still haven’t seen anyone make the case for why WordPress meetups need to go beyond what public health experts in the country have decided is necessary in terms of safety. If the UK (or whatever country) Government doesn’t require vaccination status for attending events, then why should WordPress?
In my eyes, vaccination status already is a requirement based on the current code of conduct. One of the expected behaviors is “Be considerate, respectful, and collaborative”. If someone is eligible and able to be vaccinated, how can they be considerate if they are knowingly going to an event in a place with an active pandemic while unvaccinated?
I would also love to see this extended to include flu shots and other vaccines.
@jorbin I’m tempted to ask why, but don’t mean to go off-topic. All I can say is I have never so far experienced anyone calling me inconsiderate, disrespectful, or not collaborative because of a pharmaceutical choice I did or did not make, and I would be quite surprised to learn I’m not welcome at WordPress community events any longer because I didn’t get a flu shot.
Yes, I agree with the proposal.
I would like to see us also be able to incorporate guidelines for masks that honor local health department guidelines. For example, I saw one of these signs while walking into a grocery store in the United States yesterday.
I am in agreement with the proposal. The following is language I’m seeing in the US:
In locations where the state or local jurisdiction does not have a mask mandate, we will allow members and guests who are fully vaccinated to enter without a face mask or face shield. We will not require proof of vaccination, but we ask for members’ responsible and respectful cooperation with this revised policy.
In those locations where the state or local jurisdiction does have a mask mandate, we will follow the state or local regulations and continue to require members and guests to wear a face mask or face shield. If a member or guest has a medical condition that prevents them from wearing a mask, they must wear a face shield.
I live in a city where police and government are exhausted and have given up trying to deal with it. The city neighbors a state whose State government outright denies there a problem. In my city, stores with “masks required by the state” and “you must wear a mask to board this bus” are disregarded.
I don’t trust responsibility and respectful cooperation of the individual participant who more strongly believes in their freedom.
As a organizer of the WordPress meetup of my local town:
I do! But I have no idea how to allow fully-vaccinated people, and ONLY fully-vaccinated people, into the meetup.
Something I do want to point out is that I’m already having difficulties securing a location as they also have their own guidelines. Not sure who would want to take responsibility over liabilities, but I can already see a headache over this. It does feel exhausting at the thought of playing this role of collecting documents, enforcing rules, and trying to keep a safe and welcoming environment.
As a organizer, I want to talk about WP Blocks, and Gutenberg, and help people with their WordPress issues. But with the current “political” climate (In America, getting a vaccine is unfortunately a political issue), I can’t imagine in-person meetups working in my city.
Hey Rocky, thanks for sharing your perspective here! I totally get it, and I don’t anticipate the community team trying to encourage local community organizers to do anything they’re not comfortable with, or don’t have the energy for.
We won’t be asking organizers to check vaccination status, and I agree that in some places even asking people to wear masks at a gathering can lead to uncomfortable conversations. Any organizer who wanted to avoid the hassles and simply stay online would be welcome to do so, for a good long time (maybe even forever, who knows).
I am in agreement with the proposal. To me it comes down to a couple of points
As meetups must currently complete a checklist and ‘pass’ in order to have a Chapter recognized in-person meeting< I think that the idea that ‘fully-vaccinated people’ can meet in person even if they don’t pass the other items is OK.
I think we need to let Organizers do what they are comfortable with in accordance with local regulations. I don’t think we should try and specify inside/outside. I do think we should recommend that they take extra safety measures, but leave it up to them what to do.
As I understand this we are NOT suggesting that we ask for proof of health status, vaccination passport or anything of that sort. This would be a request the meetup group would make – that attendees be ‘fully-vaccinated’ and we’d have to trust that attendees would honor this request.
I do think that in the end having an in-person is up to the local organizing Team? Yes. Do I think that we as the community team should set guidelines that assit our groups in being safe and protected (both health safe and legal safe)? Yes.
Therefore, i think adding the proposal makes sense and will work well for places that want a meetup, but would not otherwise qualify. Attendees still get to choose if they want to attend or not.
Well, brilliant, but not so.
So, if I show at the meetup, while not being vaccinated, fully or otherwise, I’ll be denied access? No? Then I’ll be let in? If yes, then what’s the point of making that request in the first place?
And if I don’t get let in, I suppose that I could sue you for discrimination? 🙂
I mean, just think about it for a while.
On how many previous meetings you’ve participated, surrounded with a bunch of people from everywhere, fully oblivious of whether people around you have TB, AIDS, Denge, Malaria, Flu, STD, any kind of skin disease, and guess what, you’re still alive.
You can’t live in a sterile world, FYI. That will not change after COVID-19 either.
Section What COVID-19 vaccines have been authorized and how do they work?
I invite everyone in favour of such 2-classes society where people “with vaccines” can “take part” and people “without vaccines shall not take part” to read that section and think for a moment about what it means to “adding vaccination status to the in-person meetup safety checklist”
Notice how some vaccines require two injections given 21 days apart, others two injections given 28 days apart, and even others require one injection?
So, when would I have to make my vaccine to be admitted to a WordCamp?
29 days before joining? 14 days? 1 day?
What if the vaccine was not effective in that one particular person?
Oh, I know: create a third group, which we then can blame if the virus still spread despite all vaccines.
Such measures like discussed in this proposal would, according above stat, exclude over 60% of US Americans from WordCamps.
The USA is a modern and wealthy country, yet only 40% are roughly vaccinated.
Will the less wealthy part of the world have to watch over the screen while more wealthy 40%ers can join in person?
This all sounds like a very bad, and dark, joke from back in the ’40s to me.
Not sure about other people, but I strongly oppose such measures.
If it is a concern that WordCamps will contribute to COVID spread and related deaths, just hold the conversations online.
The part that never stops to amaze me is the total disappearance of common sense in previous 18 months, like we’re dealing with Ebola or black plague. I’m 54 for crying out loud and yes, I would show up unvaccinated and yes, I’m not planing to take one. Ever.
Whenever you go outside, you take risk. You can die in traffic, “evil” Chinese rocket can crash on you. You can trip on doorstep inside your own house and break your neck. You want 100% safety? Well, in your dreams only.
And as I wrote in one of my responses above, what’s next? No flu shot no access? Sounds silly and far-fetched? Well, think again.
I’m very much against this proposal.
Besides the legal side of excluding people based on their vaccination status (as @defries, @bedas, @glueckpress, and others already pointed out) I don’t think it goes well with the values of our community. Ever since day one, I’ve learned the WordPress community is about inclusiveness. We’ve always taken pride in this.
This proposal means that multiple groups of people will no longer be allowed to attend our meetings. They’re limited to the meetings that are streamed online. They’re basically 2nd class citizens in our community now. They can’t join the party, they have to watch through the window. Just this idea makes me extremely uncomfortable.
A few examples of groups we would exclude:
What stands out for me with all the above examples is that these are typically the minorities we’re trying to protect in all our policies. Are we really ready to tell them they’re 2nd class citizens so that we can meet in person a few weeks/months before it’s safe for everyone to meet again in person?
I am not.
Because in the end, when the vaccination rate goes up, the number of cases etc. will drop. That’s how it’s supposed to work. So if we just wait a bit longer, we don’t have to exclude anyone and will be able to meet with everyone in person because the numbers we defined earlier are met.
Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts and concerns to this discussion! I’m closing comments (a little later than I intended), and we’ll work to get a summary post published shortly.